The Resolution Zone Diet
The Resolution Zone Diet: Why it’s Better than Keto and Paleo Diets
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The best healthy diet has been the holy grail of modern medicine. Despite 100s of studies and journals, there seems to be a lot of controversy as to which is the best diet for most of us to follow.
Before there was Paleo diet or keto diet, there was actually the Zone diet. I remember it. Dr. Barry Sears, a PhD biochemist, who for 25 years has been espousing that to stay healthy, a diet with the proper proportion of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates is the key to good health.
Dr. Sears published The Zone Diet in 1995. He did have quite a lot of competition back then from some other famous doctors such as Dean Ornish who published his book, Reversing Heart Disease, which favored a low-fat vegetarian diet.
And in contrast to that, there was Dr. Robert Atkins who published the Atkins Revolution, which much of the public embraced as a high-fat diet, but no carbs. And in between all of that, most physicians were pretty supportive of the Mediterranean diet. And now finally what’s recently hit the stage is the Paleo diet and the keto diet. And it really has us all scratching our heads. What should we eat? I don’t know. People are asking this all the time.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Dean, thank you very much.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
My pleasure. All right. Let me just start with something very general about diet and weight. Because again, probably back in 1995, when you came out with the Zone diet and to most diets that got a lot of popularity, they weren’t so much interested back then about inflammation. They were worried more about losing weight. And The Zone book, sold over a million copies back then, the word started to spread that people were losing weight without going hungry on your diet. But I want to ask you now, do you think losing weight is one of the most key things in any diet?
The Zone Diet Wasn’t Really About Dieting – It Was About…
Dr. Barry Sears:
No. What the key thing and where I started, actually, the start of the Zone was around the early 1980s. Won the Nobel Prize in medicine, was awarded for understanding how a group of hormones called eicosanoids basically affect inflammation. So, the Zone diet was not a diet, it was really a way of controlling the levels of excess inflammation. Now, one of the consequences of that, if you can reduce inflammation and more important as we’ll talk about today, resolve it, then you have the keys to living a longer and better life.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So, it’s not about weight. My point that I was bringing out is that most people when they hear about, oh, the new diet’s app or the keto, or the Paleo, I’m going to lose weight. But again, you make a really good case in your book. We’re going to get into that, that that’s not the most important thing.
Dr. Barry Sears:
No, not quite a long-term.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I mean, most people, again right there, they’re so happy about they go on the scale and they see five or 10 pounds that they’ve lost, but yet their biochemical markers could be getting worse.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Is that correct?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. And that’s why when you look at those scale weights, we should be looking at the blood chemistry. The blood chemistry will tell you what is the best diet for you.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right. And I think that’s why you have such a unique position. One of my other big idols in medicine really was Linus Pauling, and he was essentially a biochemist. He was a chemist, but he worked in a lot of biological and discovered so many of those pathways and everything. But they really understand because we’ll get to this later also too. The body is really a chemistry set, but we’ve got our law so we got to get into later. It’s also a microbiology set. So those two things I think are probably the two most important things when people are deciding what foods they’re going to put into their body.
What Should You Be Looking for in a Diet
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So, let’s go on to something that I really wanted to hear your opinion about. And as you hear, I mentioned in the opening, I’d like to just set the stage, compare some of the diets, and some of them have faded from popularity. But the Ornish diet which I followed for several years, and I actually didn’t feel so great on it. I’ll share some of my things, but I wouldn’t want to have Dean Ornish’s program. I was in my 30s, and he had just come out with his book and I was really interested. I said, wow, I’m in my 30s. Why don’t I prevent my heart disease? Why should I wait till I’m 60?
But it had good and bad things, which I ended up realizing. And a lot of my vegetarian patients are the most difficult patients to take care of. They have health issues and Atkins, obviously got everybody all excited about avoiding carbs and that probably gave rise to the keto diet. So, can you set the stage for me a little bit? You talk about this as one of the chapters in your book. Let’s go one by one, some simple things. Again, just your perspective, let’s say on the Ornish diet. What’s low-fat vegetarian? Quickly, good and bad.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, there’s many good things about a vegetarian diet if it’s a vegetarian diet. That means you’re eating lots of vegetables, but if you interpret a vegetarian diet as eating lots of pizza, it doesn’t work that way. So again, it’s all about balance. In both cases of both Dean and Robert Atkins, there are two extremes. They’re both throwing out the baby with the bath water. The fact is that what I tried to do with the Zone diet was say, you need a balance. You need enough protein. I don’t care if it’s vegetarian or animal protein, but as we balance by the right amount of carbohydrate, and yes, keep the fat levels low. So both had points to make, but in many ways I felt like a Goldilocks and the three bears.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wait for a second. But Atkins didn’t really say that you had to keep the fat low, right? I mean, that was why people loved it. They were eating their hamburgers, big steaks. They were getting a lot of fat, but they were… We’ll get to this. They were sort of blunting the insulin response because it wasn’t from the carbs. So they would lose weight probably I don’t know with some waterway, it was almost a diarrhetic effect and really the opposite of Dean Ornish who was low fat. And he basically unfortunately set the stage for fats are all pretty much bad, right?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. People want simple solutions to very complex questions. So, it’s not that there are any evil nutrients, you’re looking for what is the right balance. And the balance for not to lose weight, but to control your hormonal system that basically indicates really the quality of life you’re going to have.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. We’ll jump around here a little bit, but let’s say again, something that’s really confused me, and I’m almost glad that you say this. This keto diet, which I’ve never really been in favor of, but I have to mention, there are some prominent people really almost like David Perlmutter who I’ve met and he’s very big in brain grain, and the whole thing about he thinks that ketogenic diets are good for brain health. But what I never understood, and again as a physician, we used to always worry about when people went to ketosis. Obviously, it was diabetics, but you make the case that actually ketosis, your brain needs carbs, and it needs about 130 grams you mentioned a day of glucose. And then these diets promote going to ketosis. They’re big on what we used to consider bad fats like coconut oil. What’s your perspective on that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, the fact is actually we published some very very careful studies in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition nearly 15 years ago, comparing the Zone diet to a keto diet. Under highly controlled circumstances, the total calories were the same, the total amount of protein was the same. The only difference was the ratio of carbohydrates and fat. And what did that show? It showed that every parameter we looked at that the Zone diet was superior. There was only one area that the ketogenic diet was superior, it caused a doubling of inflammation in the blood within six weeks. Not good at all.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So why are they saying this is good for brain health? What’s their basis for say that you’re going to just keep the blood sugar levels at a very low, the hemoglobin A1C at very low levels because they probably do, I assume?
Dr. Barry Sears:
No. On the contrary, they actually go up. One of the reasons when you go into ketosis, the brain, each organ really uses different forms of energy. The heart can only use fat. The muscle can use both fat and carbohydrate to make ATP. The brain can only use glucose. So this is what happens even on a purely starvation diet. This is worked on a Harvard Medical School 35 years ago. On a pure starvation diet of 35 days, no food whatsoever, what you find is the blood sugar levels never drop below about 60 milligrams per deciliter. That’s low blood sugar, but not abnormal. Well, how can you basically maintain 60 milligrams of blood sugar with no food? The answer is the hormone cortisol. So again that you have a mechanism called neoglucogenesis that if you’re not putting enough carbohydrates in the mouth, the body will respond by increasing cortisol to break down muscle.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
And just as our listeners know, that’s a stress hormone. That is not good ever to have increased in your body. Your body is stressed. A little stress is okay, a lot of stress, not good.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And then this is a lot of stress. And what it does is it breaks down your muscle mass to convert it into glucose for the brain.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Interesting. Right. Let’s talk about a couple of things. Dr. Steven Gundry, who I was on a podcast with several months ago before COVID, a lot of months ago. He’s promoting this whole thing about avoiding lectins, another diet that starts to seem ever more confusing. And he also eats a very restrictive diet, I know when I was talking to him. He eats only two hours a day for six months a year. I mean, I don’t know how he lives like that. I mean, it’s like being on a desert island or something. But, what is it again with these lectins and causing inflammation? My background’s in immunology and I know there’s a lectin pathway and everything, but a lot of these foods seem like they could be healthy vegetables and stuff like that too. And again, you just restricting more foods.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Oh, of course. And actually the [inaudible 00:11:25] approach, well just a variation of Peter D’Adamo’s approach many decades earlier, eat right for your blood type.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Oh, okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
And so the aspect to say lectins, they can get in the body and cause all sorts of problems, that’s true. That’s why we have an immune system at the gut level to prevent lectins from getting into the blood and causing distress. Now it makes a very simple aspect. Again, say it’s not what you put in the diet is saying why balance it? Just take things out of the magic bowl. And the things that are rich in lectins are things that every nutritionist, every physician say, these are good things for the body. Why are they somehow dangerous? Because it makes good publicity. It’s a simple answer.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. Well, that’s what I’m trying to dispel here. I mean, as I said, we will get to your diet because it has so many practical and I think sensible things for patients. And it may not make the front page of the newspapers again, because you’ve been around a long time, you know that. I mean, that is the one good thing you’ve kind of outlasted a lot of other diets, but-
Dr. Barry Sears:
Longevity is good.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
… I know it is. Well, you know why it’s interesting like you say? I mean, your diet in some ways too is a little bit of a variation of the Mediterranean or I would call the Blue Zone diets which again it seems sensible because these people who live very long lives in these areas are basically eating these type of balanced diets. But let me ask you one thing two about the longevity diets, these whole things with the intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. Again what’s your… Because you do promote a little bit in the zone.
What is the Zone Diet?
Dr. Barry Sears:
The Zone is always a day one, a calorie restricted diet. A calorie restriction is the only proven technology that can basically increase aging, increase healthspan. So again, the more calories a week, the faster we age. Now, the question is on terms of a calorie-restricted diet, you can’t be hungry all the time. And you have to have adequate levels of protein, carbohydrate, and fat. So the Zone diet start out really as a theory is where you can now no one has protein leveraging. That the amount of calories you consume in a meal is based to a great extent on the amount of protein eaten at that one meal. Because once basically hormones from the gut, mainly PYY or GPL-1 reach the brain, it says, stop eating.
Dr. Barry Sears:
If you’re not eating enough protein, you will not release those hormones for the gut and the body will basically keep on eating until it gets enough calories to set other centers off, to say, stop eating. So calorie restriction is the key. Intermittent fasting, it says, oh, it’s so hard. Just eat whatever you want to for eight hours a day. For some people, two hours a day. Makes no sense. Our bodies are based upon homeostasis, hormonal homeostasis. Every time we eat we’re causing massive changes in the hormonal levels that we can control or they’ll control us. So when you hear about this intermittent fasting, it’s really calorie restriction.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Well, how about, let’s say the time-restricted, because it’s interesting you say in your books, I think you also say, but also trying to keep the blood sugar levels sort of even keel, which makes sense. The other ones, time-restricted say, you know what? No. Your body… I mean, I interviewed Mark Mattson from the NIH. Again, a lot of them believe in this whole aging thing that by, let’s say, for example, skipping breakfast. We were all brought up breakfast as you need to start the day. But actually, by skipping it and going longer fasting, it’s just starting the day with no meal. Let’s say, typically, if you ate at seven, eight o’clock the night before, and then you don’t eat again until one or two o’clock, that 14-hour period actually helps the cells autophagy, cleanse themselves essentially. Are you disagreeing with that or?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes. I mean, he’s correct. If you basically decrease calories, you’ll activate the gene transcription factor, AMPK, that does all those things. So, we have a couple of things. We have stata. There’s one thing to go from mice, but now let’s go to humans. We know from long-term studies, one-year studies, in terms of calorie restriction, continuous calorie restriction, and that’s really the Zone diet versus intermittent fasting. So, the calories coming in are exactly the same. There are no differences after one year in weight loss or any other metabolic profiles. So a calorie is a calorie when it comes to calorie restriction. The second thing with time-restricted or the one way to increase inflammation
Dr. Barry Sears:
… in the body, is eat too many calories at any one meal.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Oh, that’s a really good point. And what would that be? What would you say that is? Let’s say, we all like to sort of get a ballpark figure. Well, again, let’s just talk total calories. Let’s say the average man, if we’re going to just call it the average man. He should be eating about 1800 calories a day. I mean-
Dr. Barry Sears:
I say close to the 1500. That’s all you need.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
- Okay. It doesn’t matter how he divides it up? Out of that 1500, don’t eat 1000 at dinner or whatever.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. You’re spreading it throughout the day, like a drug. And you’re trying to keep the ratio of protein to carbohydrate, as balanced as possible to every drug. My initial human studies were not done in overweight people, they were done with Olympic athletes. Now, Olympic athletes need more calories-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… than you or I. But the Olympic athletes I worked with, who have won 25 gold medals in the last five Olympics, none of them have ever consumed more than 2,500 calories per day. Not 5,000.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wow. Because I remember I used to read about Michael Phelps. I think he used to consume about 7,000 calories a day. I mean, he’s a huge guy.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Right. It could be. At least the Olympic athletes I’ve worked with.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
No, I know. I’m just finding it interesting. Again, two or three, it is very interesting to me because I know some… read stories about marathon runners and I’m always surprised also how they don’t eat a lot, believe it-
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s right.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You’d think for all the running and everything that you’re doing, I mean, I know they try to stay thin because they think all the extra pounds holds back their time and injuries and all that. But fascinating really.
Dr. Barry Sears:
So let’s go back to the average man, like you or I.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
1500 calories is about what you want. So three meals a day, each are about 500 calories. And here’s a good rule of thumb. Don’t eat after the sun goes down.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. Well that’s… If I got rid of television and we just went to sleep at then, it would be fine. I’m such a night eater. It’s like the worst curse.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Because now, you’re basically, the whole aspect of intermittent fasting, say, be in line with our circadian rhythms.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yes. It’s true.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Our circadian rhythms are governed by light time cycle, not our watch. So eat while it’s light.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Absolutely. I know. Absolutely. You know too also, I’ve read studies. This is by [The Word Spins 00:00:18:14]. I think they were up at MIT. We do tend to crave carbs at night. It helps us… Yeah, I don’t know what it is… to sleep. They’ll say… I mean. So if you’re going to have… and other places I’ve heard too that if you’re going to get your carbs, I don’t know if it’s beneficial, but it’s satisfying. I don’t know.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Oh, it’s satisfying. Carbs are always satisfying.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
They sure are.
Dr. Barry Sears:
But scientifically, it’s not correct. And here’s a good rule of thumb. You know your last meal was hormonally balanced, if you’re not hungry for the next five hours.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Oh, I’ll tell you something personal for me. What I find, because again also, it’s interesting. Your body gets on such a rhythm, like even when we’ve had the daylight savings, this hour change. I just know I’m not hungry until what was my original… When I typically eat. I typically eat a late morning breakfast, something small, blueberries, walnuts, something like that. Then at lunch I have a salad. And what’s interesting… I don’t know. I guess during the day and I’m working, whatever, I don’t even think about food. I feel satisfied. And probably, again, the salad is balanced. But then in the evening, at the end of the day, boy, the appetite comes out. I don’t know what it is, sort of like you finish your day. Yeah. You look forward to your dinner and then the battle goes because you’re not as busy, I guess.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, no. I’ll give you another alternative aspect. And that is the alternative aspect, that each meal, the reason why you’re hungry in the evening because your two previous meals, that is the meal at breakfast and the meal at lunch were hormonally unbalanced.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Oh, interesting.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And now you go back to your breakfast. You say I had some walnuts. Okay, a little fat. I had some-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Blueberries, yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… but not enough protein.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Interesting.
Dr. Barry Sears:
At lunch, you probably had enough carbohydrate and good carbohydrates, but not-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Well, mostly salad and beans. I try to do like vegetarian until my last meal. And sometimes I do vegetarian.
Dr. Barry Sears:
But you want to say eat-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
We need the protein.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… You need the protein. That goes back to the question-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Will the beans give you the protein? Will the beans do it? They don’t do it enough.
Dr. Barry Sears:
They don’t do it enough because they carry a massive amount of carbohydrates at the same time.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Interesting. Interesting. So you would say… Okay. I see that. So if I had had enough protein throughout the day, I wouldn’t be as ravenously hungry in the evening.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
That’s a really good point. See, I learned… This is why I do this podcast. I not only share all this great information to my listeners, I learn something for myself. Sorry. Sorry guys. But it’s interesting because again, I fight it. I’m like, “What the heck am I doing?” I’m eating healthy. I feel good during the day. And then in the evening I am ravenously hungry.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Your hormones are catching up to you.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Very Interesting. Okay. We’re going to get into the specific on the zones but I want to move to diet and inflammation, which is obviously the thing that you brought out. And obviously, really now, it’s also, it’s something most of the public… I see it with most of my patients. They are very aware of it now. They really have shifted from losing a few pounds or whatever to saying, “I don’t want my body inflamed.”
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You make some really interesting assertions in your books that, again, following the Zone Diet can help with autoimmune disease, colitis arthritis and again with supplementation, which we’ll get into. But I want to ask you, how do you describe gut inflammation and how do you test for it? And I asked Alessio Fasano at Harvard.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I had him on and he’s really done some amazing work showing the zonulin levels. But what do you look for? Because you talk about in the book, about the gut being inflamed and-
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, when the gut’s inflamed, what happens is basically the barrier between the world of microbes, which is a very alien world compared to our world, breaks down. And now those microbial fragments can begin to enter into the blood and basically cause now, of sentinels on every cell. They’re called toll-like receptors, to be lit up. And they basically generate inflammation. This is what happens when you have sepsis. The barriers break down, you develop sepsis, you get a cytokine storm and you usually die.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Now a gut inflammation’s not as bad as sepsis but sepsis shows exactly the same things which are happening. You want a strong gut barrier to keep microbial fragments on their side, in their world. When they reach our world, bad things happen.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. So how do you see achieving that and what, just out of curiosity too, because I don’t remember seeing the book. Because I know we’ll get into it, how you talk about arachidonic acid and central fatty acid ratios. But does any of that help you now, let’s say again, how people get on your diet, the Zone Diets, the Resolution Zone Diet. How do they keep their gut healthy if maybe up until now, it was not healthy.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, here’s a good rule of thumb. Your great grandmother told you eat 10 servings of fruits and vegetables per day.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Why? Because they contain the fermentable fiber the gut needs to generate the energy, to maintain itself and to prevent the breakdown of the gut barrier.
Okay. That’s a good what grandma said. Okay. Let’s get into your three steps that you mentioned your book in The Resolution Zone, that reverse inflammation. I like you to just go over a little bit specifics on the diet. You talk about the Omega 3s, polyphenols and the fermentable fiber. Tell the listeners a little bit more in depth, if you wouldn’t mind, so they could really understand the ratios, and how they can practically do it Dr. Sears.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I know, it’s really interesting actually, once too… I can’t believe I remember this. Years ago, a colleague of mine, a doctor, was following your diet with his daughter and he was actually getting the meals, I guess, the Zone meals. Do you still do that? You still-
Dr. Barry Sears:
No.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
He used to get the Zone meals. They would get delivered and he was so happy. But explain to the listeners a little bit, again now, about your The Zone Diet again, which you, as I said, been working on for gosh, three decades, at least. Let’s get the ins and outs a little bit and is specific or anything that’s practical would be welcome to the listeners.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Let’s start with the practical. That’s always the best one.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah.
How to Follow the Zone
Dr. Barry Sears:
Here’s a good rule. All you need to follow the Zone Diet are three things. One hand, one eye, and one watch. If you have those three things, you can follow this for a lifetime.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Here’s how you use those rules. At each meal, you put some low fat protein on your plate. I don’t care what the source is, whether it’s vegetarian, animal protein but just low fat protein. But how much? No more than the size of the palm of your hand.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
A deck of cards kind of thing, like they say. Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And so that’s about 25 grams on average. About 22 grams for a female, 28 grams for a-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Can I stop you one second? What would be the vegetarian choice because a fish, obviously people know. Chicken. You said beans are too carbohydrate heavy. So what would be the-
Dr. Barry Sears:
So you have to find out soybean substitutes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
So you see impossible meat. Things like this. So which they are more heavily rich now in basically plant protein.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
So now, that’s why the hand. Now why the eye. You have to divide your plate into three equal sections. So on one third of the plate, you’ll put the amount of protein you’re going to eat that meal on the plate. The other two thirds of the plate, you fill it until it’s overflowing with non-starchy vegetables and maybe a little fruit.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. Great. What about grain? What about some grains? That people want quinoa or rice or something like that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
I’ll paraphrase some Dirty Harry. “Do you feel lucky?” Because again, the greatest repository of nutrients are found in fruits and vegetables, not grains. And they’re an incredibly rich source of glucose that enters the bloodstream very rapidly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right. So they’re high glycemic index, which people are familiar-
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You’re very much also concerned about glycemic index with your foods, is that correct?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Because-
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s correct.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And then you add a dash of fat and then why do you need the watch? If you balanced your meal correctly for the next five hours, you won’t be hungry.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Those are great tips and great, great points. So let me answer you a question. So again, I’m going to give my own practical things. No, I also don’t like to eat heavy during the day. I’m busy and it’s like, I’m not sitting down to a big meal at lunchtime, on my break between patients.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, it depends how much little chicken. If the chicken is a size of the palm of your hand-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… it’s perfect.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So that is good? Right. Okay. So that’s the kind of thing that… I want to try that again. I kind of moved… That’s why I was thinking like going again, slightly more vegetarian-based but as I said, I was finding myself very hungry later and overeating. And so again, I think what you really point out is so important. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong too. So basically in your diets, I think you like 40% carbs and again, 30% fat, 30% protein. Is that correct?
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s correct. But again, let’s put it in terms of practical aspect.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah, let’s do practical. Like people aren’t sitting there measuring percentages.
Dr. Barry Sears:
So I use the one, two, three method.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
For every gram of fat you have in a meal, have two grams of protein and three grams of carbohydrate.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
You’ll get about the same percentage-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
One, two three.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… of calories.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
That’s a good point. I think also, and something too, that you brought up, which again, I maybe conveniently forgot about was like, let’s say also again, when I’ll have lunch, a lot of times you go to these salad places. They’ll give you a full avocado. That’s a lot of fat.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Instead of like you say, have slithers of it or a quarter of that. And again, you’re like, “Oh, that’s not as satisfying,” but you learn to get used to it because as we all know, if it’s all on our plate, we tend to demolish the plate it’s gone. And that’s where the discipline has to come in, in portion size. I mean, I once went, years ago with my wife, to Canyon Ranch. And I’ll never forget. We went there because we figured it was a nice… It was up in the Berkshires. And we knew we’d be eating healthy because we liked eating healthy food. But I’ll never forget when the meals came around, the portions seemed so small. And I’m not an enormous eater, but I’m like, “This is really small.” But we’re just so used to going to the restaurants or wherever we go, that everything is overflowing.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Ah. But see, at the Canyon Ranch, they’re giving you lots of grains. Grains are very calorically dense. So to restrict calories, you had to have very small amounts. Now, if they’d taken the grains off the plate and replaced it with non-starchy vegetables, you’d say no mas, no mas. Too much. It’s hard… It’s very difficult, if not impossible to eat a lot of non-starchy vegetables.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
When you say non-starchy vegetables, too, you’re talking… Well when you’re thinking starchy vegetables, you’re talking about potatoes. You’re also talking about sweet potatoes, pretty much, also?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes. I Talk about the ABCs.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yes. Okay. Let’s hear that.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Asparagus, artichokes, broccoli, cauliflower and spinach. They’re ABCs.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
How about if people have a little bit of grain with their meals? Is that okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
A little grain. A little grain is fine. Yes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. It’s like a little topping. All right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
A dessert. A dessert.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. Let’s get to one of your really big things and it was one of the books I love that you wrote, The Omega Zone, believe it or not. And like I said, I’ve read a lot of your stuff. Let’s talk about the Omega fatty acids in the diet. Let’s talk practical and then we’re going to go a little bit deeper into… Because I know you’re a big proponent of fish oil and I really want to hash that out a little bit. So tell the listeners about the Omega 3s. How they can get it through the nuts fish, olive oil, et cetera.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, again, now we’re getting a little complexity in the weeds, but it’s not the Omega 3s per se. It’s the really elongated-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Ratio.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… Omega 3s. That is [inaudible 00:30:04] EPA and the DHA. You’re not going to find them in nuts. Not at all.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You won’t find them in nuts.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Though nuts contain Omega 3 fatty acids, their transformation into EPA and DHA is incredibly slow and inefficient. So we have a lot of confusion as to yes, there’s okay Omega 3s and then the big boys. So you want to have enough of the big boys. How much?
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wait, let’s talk about this. So for the little boys, the nuts… So let’s say when people eat walnuts and stuff too, that’s like, okay, healthy. It’s not super healthy?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Ir’s okay healthy because it’s a great source of fermentable fiber.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
A lot of polyphenols. But the amount of Omega 3 fatty acids to have any effect on inflammation, is basically zilch.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wow. Wow. Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Now your great grandmother knew exactly how much you probably needed. That is three generations ago, no child could leave the house unless they had a tablespoon of cod liver oil.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Liver oil.
Dr. Barry Sears:
The world’s most disgusting food.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Ew, yes. Right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Now cod liver oil contains about two and a half grams of Omega 3 fatty acids of EPA and DHA.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
The average American, in a day, consumes 125 milligrams. Why is this difference important? Because without adequate levels of these long chain Omega 3 fatty acids in the blood, you cannot make a newly discovered group of hormones called resolvins that resolve inflammation.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
But what about societies that didn’t live near the ocean, that couldn’t fish? They didn’t live as long?
Dr. Barry Sears:
So it turns out the vast majority of societies who live near the ocean usually live near lakes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. And so they got fish somehow.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. And you see the space, we in the East African Rift Valley. Those tribes now still live on the shoreline, consume massive amounts of EPA and DHA, compared to their farming brethren, maybe only 20 miles away.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So the key is fish.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, no. The key is these are Omega-3 fatty [crosstalk 00:32:01] fish. They’re called contamination.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
You can run, but you can’t hide. And the biggest contaminant is called polycarbonate bisphenol. They’re found in every fish in the world today because they are of persistent. They’re basically indestructible.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
But we now know they’re neurotoxin, carcinogens and endocrine disruptors. So just eating fish, that, plus and basically contamination of mercury. So we have some problems.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
We do, right. Yes.
How to Find the Best Fish Oil Supplement
Dr. Barry Sears:
So the answer becomes now refined fish oil that you’ve taken out the pollutants, that we had put into the environment.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So let me ask you this too, because there are some other holistic doctors around the country who I really respect. And I was at a meeting once two, three years ago, and he stopped recommending fish oil for his patients. He just felt the way they even make the fish oil. It’s impossible to prevent contamination.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Wrong. And I say, because all fish oil, pharmaceutical drugs, the cheapest stuff, you can find it from the health food store. They all come from the same source. Anchovies and sardines caught off the coast of Peru and Chile. Now, what differentiates the good fish oil from the bad is the degree of refining, that you can remove the mercury. That’s easy removing the PCBs. That’s hard work.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Because I know for a while to you, I know for a while too, you’ve made a supplement for through your company or something. The, that was selling the fish oils again.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
Three orders of magnitude lower than what you find in the health food store. Is expensive?
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yeah. Is it worth it? Yeah.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Let me ask you this of too, so I followed the literature over the years, where again, for a while, the Omega-3 fatty acids supplementation, there was Alexander Leaf, I think at Harvard, promoted that it was actually Dean Ornish’s mentor at Harvard. He was the one who basically initiated the whole thing that, these omega-3 fatty acids super important in preventing atherosclerosis. Then over really decades, I mean that more of these papers that came out found no benefit from them. And honestly, you’re one of the few that says you really don’t even talk about the heart as much as you talk about being so important, in autoimmune diseases. Do you still stick by that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Of course.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
See basically, if you give a placebo dose, you get placebo effects.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
So what’s the right dose official. It depends. It depends on where, the inflammation is located and how much you have.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
Let’s say you’re well, and you look good in the swimsuit. Then the two and a half grams a day is probably enough. Now, what if you’re not well, you’re obese. You have heart disease, diabetes probably need double that amount.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
About five grams.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And what if you have now neurological problems or immune problems, even higher levels still. So how are you going to know? Well, actually the blood will tell you. So you can titrate the blood to a certain level of pro of arachidonic acid, the building block making all of the pro-inflammatory hormones and EPA, the building block and making the pro resolving hormones to get the right [inaudible 00:35:35]. You need them both, but they’d have to be in balance.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. That what I found so interesting in your book, that Omega Zone book that, so few doctors look at stuff like that, and, one of the things which I learned from you also I pass this along to hundreds of patients is that, I have so many times the patients come in and they have a high cholesterol, especially women, but their HDL is high. It’s good. Their triglycerides are low. And you pointed on your book when you have like a one-to-one or one, two to one ratio. That’s quite good. So these people who normally some doctor might put them on a statin should not be on statin, and it just going to probably lower their good HDL.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Not only lower their HDL, but more importantly increase our likelihood for developing diabetes.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
From what the Stanton?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Why, why does that happen?
Dr. Barry Sears:
This was one of the problems of, let’s say of reductionist thinking. Ah, I see the problem, it’s basically HMG-CoA Reductase uninhibited.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
Be careful what you wish for and that’s why that the best way to lower the cholesterol, turns out to be inhibiting that inside the best way we can inhibit it, reduce the levels of insulin in the bloodstream.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
We don’t, we’re not stopping deficient, we’re making too much insulin because of insulin resistance.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right? Hmm. Okay. Let’s go on to about polyphenols, you mentioned in the book also again, that I think one of the other really important things in reversing inflammation. Things like blueberries, olive oil, cocoa, or red wine even though you say some societies do better without any wine at all, Resveratrol, green tea all important things in the diet?
Dr. Barry Sears:
They are important things, but not equally important. There are about 8,000 known polyphenols, but most of the polyphenols are totally water-insoluble. Now, if you had a drug that was totally water-insoluble, and you gave it orally would have any of efficacious?
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
No.
Dr. Barry Sears:
No! it wouldn’t get in the bloodstream. Yeah, the same is true of polyphenols. Not all polyphenols have a sufficient water solubility to get into the blood to activate that last major phase, the activation of AMPK the enzymes of life. Now the polyphenols that have the highest levels of these more water-soluble polyphenols are those from fruits and berries.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So only you can get the kind that don’t have pesticides and all that other.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. Dewberries fall in that camp.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
And what about blackberries is supposed to be good too [inaudible 00:06:06]?
Dr. Barry Sears:
There are good also.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Raspberries? Uh-huh (affirmative)
Dr. Barry Sears:
All these are good, except they carry massive amounts of glucose. Now, why is that important? Well, remember, we’re trying to basically activate AMPK, but if we take in too much glucose that inhibits AMPK. So now looking at a polyphenol extracts become a way of getting now the polyphenols without the extra glucose.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So what’s a polyphenol extract?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, again, where you basically, you have a… Here’S a one polyphenol extract, it is called red wine, but we think of red wine resveratrol. There’s for treat very small amounts of resveratrol. It’s not red, it’s not blue. It’s white, it’s water-insoluble. It’s only one of many 50 polyphenols red wine. So the major polyphenol red wine that gives you the color come from that group of polyphenols that you find in fruits and berries.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
What about Coco? I like Coco?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Coco is great except for one.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Cadmium.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, yeah, that’s two things, so the higher, the amount of cocoa polyphenols, the higher, the amount of cadmium, this is not good. Second of all, only about 10% of the cocoa polyphenols can enter the blood, which means 90% can’t. Now the 90% that can’t are good for the gut, but they aren’t very good for you. So again, you’re looking for those 8,000 polyphenols that have that highest degree of water solubility.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
What are those, what are the, just, what are the examples of that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, the best group is called Delphinidins.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
Delphinidins are found in the highest concentrations in the blueberry family.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
The American blueberry, the Patagonian blueberry, and the Russian blueberry, these have very high levels of these Delphinidins.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
And what about green tea? Do you like, do you think you get enough of the benefits people will say for the prostate? It’s good. And I don’t know other the arteries and stuff like that too. Do you buy into them?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Oh, I buy into it with a grain of salt. I drink about, Oh, maybe eight to 10 cups of green tea per day.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wow. How come so much?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Because it’s good for you.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Oh, so you think it’s good for, what do you think is why is it good for you?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Because it contains polyphenols.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
That’s what I said.
Dr. Barry Sears:
But the fact is, they are not nearly as effective as the other polyphenols found from fruits and vegetables. So they’re good, so the more polyphenols you get in the diet, the better off you are.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
All right. And what about, cause I always say this to my patients too. I said the biblical diet, it was probably the best because around the biblical times you should eat it. So olive oil, which they use for a lot of different things, you’re now you’re a big fan of cooking with it. Just pouring on your Vegetables?
Dr. Barry Sears:
I’m a big fan of cooking with refined olive oil, because the cooking will destroy the polyphenols. Now, after you cooked it, now you add the extra virgin olive oil, which contains the polyphenols.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right? Wait so you cook with the refined olive oil?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yeah.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Cause it just gets burnt off. It doesn’t matter. You don’t need the extra virgin.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Oh, you don’t get, you’re going to break down products to the polyphenols and you’re not getting any excess Omega-6 fatty acids in the process.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right. Well, that’s another thing too. I know you mentioned this in the book. I think it’s so important. And again, people aren’t going to be able to measure this, but you say we’re supposed to have more Omega-6 than Omega-3, but we get way too much. The ratio is out of proportion. And what is high in Omega-6 is again like, is it that because it’s soy or is it legumes?
Dr. Barry Sears:
All vegetable oils are incredibly high.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
That this was not a problem at the turn of the century at 1900, we had no vegetable oils. It’s only one We basically developed gasoline that we could extract out the vegetable oils from seeds. They became now one of the primary sources of calories and the second most inexpensive source of calories, just barely after table shirts.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So what’s the best thing to cook with. Is it best? Let’s say you better off with people just always thinking you better off cooking with olive oil versus butter. And what’s the best thing to do cook for?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, but that’s why I go back to say, get the cheapest olive oil you can to the store and cook with that.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
That’s fine.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And that’s good for the cooking. It’s low in the Omega-6 fatty acids.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
And things won’t stick, whatever right?
Dr. Barry Sears:
And then add the extra Virgin expensive stuff.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Got it, uh-huh (affirmative)
Dr. Barry Sears:
You get the polyphines.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
What about avocado oil? Do you think that’s also good for cooking with or.
Dr. Barry Sears:
There’s a lot of carotenoids that can break down. So again and extensively, so get the cheap refined olive oil for cooking and then add the good things after the fact.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
What about also that we talked about, which I think is very important. Would you say fermentable fiber? I always like to tell my patients when I’m having them have ground up Flaxseed, which I tell him to put in their diet and stuff like that too. I said, I call it the good carpeting for the gut. Is that how you see it? Do you see it as something that essentially is good for the good bacteria that we want to promote in our intestinal tract?
Dr. Barry Sears:
It’s incredibly important, because if you don’t feed with these fermentable fiber and flax seeds are very good in this. If you don’t feed the bacteria, they’re only going to angry and what they do, they start digesting the barrier between their world and our world. That’s called this dysfunctional gut.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
So you have to have a lot of fiber in the diet to keep the microbes happy, so you’re happy.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Probably the biggest thing I see in my practice is what it was called, candida yeast overgrowth, which again, so many doctors did not recognize, but I see cases every week and I do now consults all over the country on this. And it’s all because sadly, people put on massive doses of antibiotics, whether it was for acne, the teenagers, the adults sometimes if they’ve had chronic sinus, not realizing that most of these infections are not even bacterial. So it’s like an epidemic and it definitely has changed the microbiome. So my job is essentially trying to work with them on their diet to get that fermentable fiber back to sort of restore that good balance.
Because I think that that was one of the main things I want to get through today. I mean, as I said, early in the introduction, I mean you early on in your career, obviously focused on this idea of inflammation and definitely approached it as a biochemistry issue, which again was the main thinking back then, but now the microbiome has become just as important. And I think it’s really the marriage of these two concepts are how people are going to stay healthy. Is that making sense? Yeah.
Dr. Barry Sears:
I agree and again, systems biology. It’s not any one magical drug or one magical nutrient. it’s how the system works, how to make the system be as efficient as possible. That basically everything is basically maintained in a zone.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. Tell us about, can you explain a little bit more about insulin resistance and what our listeners should know? And if they have to ask their doctor, because you know, again, all the times doctors get very still basic blood studies and this isn’t addressed. And I know you mentioned your book about looking at hemoglobin A1C glucose over a hundred. Does it matter also the serum insulin, whether it’s higher or low, I mean, what are the factors to you?
Dr. Barry Sears:
It’s incredibly important. The best marker of insulin resistance is called homo, which is a looking at the ratio of fasting glucose to fasting insulin. Ideally your fasting insulin should be less than five micro units per ML. The average in America is about 20.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
A fasting insulin?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. It’s not a standard practice that’S you don’t see them very often.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I only ask this because you’re really good with these ratio things. So you’re saying a really good test, is this I use, I send a patient and I say to them, okay, you’re going to go for bloods. It’s going to be first thing in the morning, whatever, you can do overnight fast. You look at their blood sugar and get them labs of course gives you ranges. They say 80 to 99, but if a person’s 99, whatever, and their insulin is 15, those are bad numbers, right? I mean, those are those.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Bad. Yes. I’ll put the emphasis on bad.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. And would you say that also indicates, are they pre-diabetic or they have insulin resistance? I mean, how do you?
Dr. Barry Sears:
They, they are both about 16% of the people have severe insulin resistance are normal weight, but the insulin resistance is severe. Now why is this important insulin is not the boogeyman. It’s incredibly important to, as a central control point to control our metabolism.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
But when you have inflammation, whether it be in the muscle cells or the liver cells or the adipose tissue now, insulin can’t get his job done. That’s what we call insulin resistance. Now the poor pancreas keeps on pumping out more and more insulin to basically deliver the message you’re supposed to do something. Now this excess insulin has as have any hormones. Anytime you have excess hormones, you get collateral damage.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s the collateral damage that comes from excess insulin.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Glycemic index. Because now they’re just, cause we’re talking about this and let me look through are healthy foods. I mean today, for example, I had a half a banana, I liked bananas, but are they just, are they too high in the glycemic index? I mean, can people, do people have to be very careful with fruits because of that? I also find apples are really good to, for the fiber. They keep people full. You just said earlier about grandma’s advice, but the eight to 10 fruits and vegetables. Well, how do you do that? So that you’re not getting the glycemic index off the scale?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, first of all, I should paraphrase the 10 servings being eight servings of vegetables and two of fruit.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You didn’t say that before, okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s called detox.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
All right.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And, and so it’s looking at the dose, it depends on the individual. If they have insulin resistance, they’re, pre-diabetic they’re of obese or even overweight, let’s say you want to basically be very careful about putting in too much carbohydrates. Now, if you’re a world-class athlete, you have a little more leeway, not that much.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Just a little leeway for a world class athlete?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly. You know, they are no different than you and I after two hours after their training. So they have.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
They do to like replenish, let’s say that, I watched the tennis, I was a tennis player and I played in college in high school and I watched the pros and they, have a five-hour match. And then maybe two days later they got played another three hour match. But
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
What do they do when they’re finished, I mean, they’d have to be depleted, obviously they have to be hydrated. What would be a perfect meal post, and even for the weekend warrior like myself, what would be the perfect… I rode my bike today for 10 miles or something but what would be the perfect reward meal to replenish yourself and feel satisfied as far as, is that when you get a little more carbs?
Dr. Barry Sears:
No, that’s called a zone meal.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Same thing. So no treat for running 10 miles or whatever.
Dr. Barry Sears:
The only treat is that because you’re running 10 miles, you’re causing more muscle damage. You might need a little more protein than if you weren’t running the 10 miles, more protein means I need more carbohydrate and a little more fat-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
To balance it, okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And so the only difference between a world-class athlete and the diabetic patient, following The Zone Diet, is that the world-class athlete would need more protein, more carbohydrate, and possibly more fat. Now, how do you know if you need more fat in your diet, take your shirt off and look at yourself in the mirror. If you can see a six pack, you probably need some more carbohydrate because you need some more fat so you have a two pack. World-class swimmers operate best at about 10% body fat, 6% body fat, you look great on fitness magazine, but say, you’re not going to be a very good performer. So the secret is to exercise hard, replenish within a two hour window after that exercise.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
That’s a good point. Okay. Yeah. I don’t have the six pack, so I assume I’d have to eat, watch my shakes after my workouts.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Exactly.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I knew this was going to be a tough day today. Just one other question, though, about protein, you know, David Sinclair, who’s at Harvard, and you probably heard of him, he’s considered a big anti-aging expert. He says protein ages us. He says, there’s been too much hype about protein. Was he talking about, all these people that are putting in protein into, again, their shakes and thinking, oh, I got to eat more protein. I mean, do you agree with that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes and no. I mean, you’re looking for the right amount of protein for you. That depends on your amount of lean body mass. David is not a very, let’s say, big person. He doesn’t need very much protein. And if you’re an MIT researcher, you’re not all that active. So again, the amount of protein you need is dependent upon your muscle mass and your level of activity.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Well, I mean, it does seem also to, there was that craze. I mean, I hear it from so many people, they’re like, “Oh, I got to, I need more protein.” Or even people who are working out, they think protein makes their muscles big, which it really doesn’t, it’s-
Dr. Barry Sears:
No, it’s all about, basically, balance and moderation. Basically, there’s two words people hate to hear, balance and moderation.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah, that’s very important.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Again, it’s not protein makes you age faster. It’s excess calories that make you age faster. Calorie restriction is, basically, calorie restriction without malnutrition. That means without protein malnutrition. So you have to basically develop a dietary system that makes sure you get adequate protein, but spread throughout the day at equal levels, balanced at each meal with a right glycemic load, with the right balance of a Omega six to Omega three fatty acids, with a lot of fiber and say, oh my God, this is so hard. It’s not that hard, but basically the speak of looking at any magic aspect is saying, it’s living in a fool’s paradise.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I get it. George [inaudible 00:00:51:31], the famous cardiologist who was part of the running craze. I read a lot of his books, which I find really interesting. I wish I could have interviewed him. He always says to people, and when they see, as they get older, they say, oh, my face looks fuller or they look healthy, but they really should look how, their weight shouldn’t be that much off from their high school weight. Do you agree with that?
Dr. Barry Sears:
I agree 100%. Those old metropolitan life tables from 1985.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Yeah. Those are way off, right?
Dr. Barry Sears:
No, they’re actually pretty much on target.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Are they really? Well suppose if you’re too thin, they were like, I guess, because I think for infectious diseases, they were [inaudible 00:52:04] on the thin end-
Dr. Barry Sears:
So that’s when you have malnutrition-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
But, again, if somebody was to say, again, I mean, our bodies are so different. Today there’s another whole story. I mean, they poison the food. So many young people are overweight, but I mean, again, I’ll give you honestly, like when I was in high school, I remember this, I was a tennis player. I was 125 pounds. If I was having to holding on my weight there, I am definitely a lot heavier than that now. And then for the most of my mid life, I was in my 150s and now I’m struggling. It’s like in the high 160s, 70s. So again, can I get down to 125? I think I would, I was like that when I was on the Dean Ornish diet, people thought I was sickly. It was scary.
Dr. Barry Sears:
You were, yes, you can get down by starvation, but that’s not the goal. What happens as we age, our weight might not change, but our body composition changes dramatically. Basically, we lose [crosstalk 00:52:58].
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Muscle mass and all that.
Dr. Barry Sears:
… we lose muscle mass. So it’s really not how much I weigh, it’s what is my percent body fat? Here’s a good rule of thumb. For a healthy male, there should be about 15% body fat. Now, how do you know what that is? Stand stark naked in front of a mirror and you have no love handles. Now for the average female, who’s healthy, should be about 22% body fat. How can you tell? Stand stark naked in front of the mirror, you have no cellulite-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You got to be very brave to do this.
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s why do it in your own home with no one else looking.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
But yeah, Jack [inaudible 00:53:31] used to say this, it was funny. He was really a genius in his own way. I read some of his books too. They were really terrific. I want to ask you about supplements before we get to finish it, because this has been really great, but now, I find it interesting too. You’re not a big proponent of probiotics. Like you said, you can take them, but you put it in your book they’re a two out of 10 in importance compared to fermentable fiber. Why, why are probiotics, is it, we don’t really know what doing yet with them, I always tell patients, because people always ask me, what’s the best probiotic that I should have. I tell them, honestly, I don’t think medical science knows yet, we don’t really have an answer.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, they do have some benefits. That’s why I give them at least a two. But the fact is that it’s the prebiotics, the polyphenols and the fermentable fiber that do all the heavy lifting. So again, probiotics do not colonize the gut. They pass through, their used as target practice by our immune system. They won’t hurt us because most probiotics are found in fermentable foods, they’re not, help us other than say, getting the immune system fired up. So when a real pathogen comes in their, the immune system’s ready for action. That’s why, when you’re at peace, you go in the firing range and practice your shooting skills.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Got it. Interesting. So if I was to spend the day with you, what is your typical breakfast, lunch and dinner? I’m just curious.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Okay. Well a typical breakfast, now I’m six foot five. So I’m a little taller than most. So I’ll have maybe a eight egg white omelet. They say, well-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Did you say eight eggs? Eight egg white omelet?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yes. That’s equivalent protein of say, a four ounce piece of chicken breast.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Okay. Do you put cheese in it at all or no? You eat it straight.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Oh, I’ll put some guacamole on top.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Guacamole, okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
And I’m not done yet, and I’ll have some slow cooked oatmeal for breakfast. Now for lunch-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
And what do you have, tea or coffee for, what do you have for drinking?
Dr. Barry Sears:
I’ll have some green tea.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Green tea. Okay.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Now for lunch, I might have a salad with a lot of vegetables, a lot of non-starchy vegetables and maybe a four ounces, a piece of low-fat chicken. And I’ll add some extra virgin olive oil to it-
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
By the way, I’m sorry, how much do you weigh? If you don’t mind me asking you that-
Dr. Barry Sears:
I weigh about 205. This is what I weighed, actually, it’s about three pounds less than when I played at the national volleyball championships 50 years ago.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wow. You weigh less than you did back then?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yeah. It doesn’t say I have less body fat, I’m just saying I weigh less than then, but I also weigh about 20 pounds less than when I played college basketball.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Wow. And what would dinner be? Some kind of fish with veggies-
Dr. Barry Sears:
Dinner might be about six ounces of fish, sound be a good choice. Another massive amount of non starchy vegetables with a little olive oil and maybe a little fruit for dessert.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
Do you find, did you have to become disciplined to do this, obviously to make this a way of life? I mean, because as you know, in America we’re used to eating portion sizes way over what these typical four to six ounces of meat, it looks minuscule to most people, you know what I’m saying? It looks like a, d’oeuvre, not the main course.
Dr. Barry Sears:
It’s easy to become disciplined if you’re based on knowledge, if you have no knowledge, then basically it’s which way is the wind blowing? When I go to Europe, my diet there is very, very simple. For lunch, I’ll have a anti pasta or basically an appetizer, I’ll have grilled vegetables. For my entree, I’ll have grilled fish and more grilled vegetables. For my dessert, I’ll have some fresh fruit, the same thing for dinner. So again, in Europe, following quote, the true Mediterranean aspect, is easy.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
So you also stay away from a lot of the breads, right? I mean, that’s just something-
Dr. Barry Sears:
Yeah. It’s not that they don’t taste great. They do.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I know. It’s hard. Everybody has their… look people, I tell my patients also, to look, we all have our moments. So how do you feel, just again with this whole zone idea, that let’s say somebody says to you, look, I’m going to be good six days a week. I want my cheat day. How do you feel about-
Dr. Barry Sears:
That’s fine.
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
You think that’s okay?
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, it’s okay, but it’s like taking six steps forward and one step back. Okay. You’re plus five for the week. Okay, that’s better than minus two, right? [crosstalk 00:57:51].
Dr. Dean Mitchell:
I always tell patients, the only problem is that, sometimes that six forward and one step backward starts to become, four steps forward, two steps backward. Right? It becomes a reverse dance. Yeah it’s tricky.
Well, Dr., this has been amazing. I don’t know if you remember, we spoke a few years ago. I had the pleasure to talk to just briefly. And this was such a great in-depth thing. I think all of your zone books are so interesting. As I said, I loved the Omega Zone. I think this whole new book, the Resolution Zone, is also terrific. Is there anything else that you’d like to add before we kind of conclude? Is there something-
What’s In Our Future?
Dr. Barry Sears:
I think we’re really at the cusp of medicine in the 21st century, we’ve run out of steam of looking for magic pills. So what’s our future? Well, we have to now look into the body and we have the tools, the diet, if we’re willing to basically have the discipline to basically affect everything that’s important to us, our neurological problems, our immune system, our aging, right now we’re faced with our biggest epidemic ever of COVID-19. So do we have a drug for COVID-19? No, because the immune system is too complex, but ultimately, the immune system is orchestrated by the resolution response inside your body, inside your genes. And to unlock that, to make sure it’s not blocked, we have the ultimate drug knowing to mankind, food.
This is not a new concept. It goes back to Hippocrates, let food be your medicine, let medicine be your food. And even updated by Linus Pauling. When he announced the basic formats of orthomolecular medicine, he said the right dose at the right time. So again, we were seeing the same, what we see, accumulate knowledge, we’re just giving it a little more nuance. And now saying, the blood will allow you to personalize your diet. You can be a vegan. You can be a paleo advocate. You can be a lacto-ovo vegetarian, you can be an omnivore. It doesn’t matter what your dietary philosophy. You can follow the zone program within the confines of your philosophy to retake control of your body. And the blood will tell you how well you’re doing.
Yeah. I thought that was a great point. That’s what, again, I always enjoyed with your books so, Dr. Barry Sears, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was illuminating to me and I’m sure to so many of the listeners and I, again, I hope they get to read your book, The Resolution Zone and any of your other works. I think it’s really, really important.
Dr. Barry Sears:
Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. It’s a lot of fun.
About the Author – Dr. Dean Mitchell, M.D.
Dr. Dean Mitchell M.D. is a Board-Certified and Immunologist based out of NYC. He graduated from the Sackler School of Medicine and completed training at the Robert Cooke Allergy Institute in New York City. He is also a Professor of Clinical Immunology at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine, a fellow of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology, and the author of Allergy and Asthma Solution: The Ultimate Program for Reversing Your Symptoms One Drop at a Time. Dr. Dean Mitchell, M.D. has also been featured in The New York Times, The Huffington Post, Fitness Magazine, Dr. Oz, and News NY 1. Dr. Mitchell also hosts the podcast The Smartest Doctor in the Room – a combination of a lively, personal, and in-depth interview with top healthcare specialists.